Agora

My take on this whole affair… The original post is here. But I have begun a new one because it seems that we have achieved some sort of semi-closure on this issue, and also the original post had gotten too huge to handle. Now there’s only left to apportion blame. To understand this post you should read the first post. The source material I am quoting is all neatly referenced in the first post.

Where to start…. How about the beginning.

Jens Rohde had a meeting this Thursday with the Chairman of the Cartoonist’s Association, Claus Seidel. No more participants are mentioned in the news I have read. The Cartoonist’s Association is somehow affiliated with the Danish Journalist’s Guild, chaired by Mogens Blicher Bjerregaard.

Jens Rohde Thursday on TV-Avisen(in first post):

I think we ought to consider that we have 12 cartoonists in this country who have to live in hiding under protection, have had their lives turned around. The daughter of one of the cartoonists was sought out by 12 Moslem males at her school - they wanted to get at her. Luckily, she wasn’t there.

So, Jens Rohde, as the political spokesman for the Liberal party goes out and says something. Clearly it must be true. No?

No. Next day, Friday, comes this response from Mogens Blicher Bjerregaard (bottom of first post):

VOICE: But there were no 12 Moslem males. They were youngsters. Mogens Blicher Bjerregaard, speaking on behalf of the 12 Muhammed cartoonists, who are all members of the Journalist’s association, says to Ritzaus Bureau: “This is blown out of proportions, and that information was confidential. It’s not dignified for a big-time politician to use his airtime to spread such stories from the housetops. This may potentially worsen the predicament of the cartoonists and their families,” says Mogens Blicher Bjerregaard.

Ok, so Rohde wasn’t entirely correct in his statement. But still somewhere along the general axis of truth.

So thinks Jens Rohde apparently, in a response to Jyllands-Posten the same day, Friday:

“I find it quite out of order to accuse me of using this for my selfish political ends. I have given Mogens Blicher Bjerregaard a very thorough explanation of the background and the context of this remark, so it comes as a blow to me that he would say what he says,” Jens Rohde says.

BUT. Friday night this comes from Politiken:

According to the information Politiken has received, the actual case was about a group of 6-8 Moslem girls from another school who had gone to the school of the daughter of one of the cartoonists. They wanted “the daughter of the cartoonist who had insulted their prophet,” but were turned away at the door.

The cartoonist’s daughter wasn’t at school that day, but both she and the family were very distressed. The Police was informed of the matter, which was taken care of by the school involved, Politiken has learned.

Apparently, they have an independent source for this. So Jens Rohde was flat out lying? He might have been correctly quoting from the meeting? Well…..

Saturday, this comes from the cartoonist involved in Politiken:

“They weren’t adults, but 6th grade students and can’t be more then 10 or 11 years old. There weren’t 12 persons, but at most 6-8 girls. And what has been reported as something that might have been planned because of the Muhammed cartoons was the result of a year-long strife between the students of the 2 schools which began long before the Muhammed cartoons issue, ” the cartoonist says.

He wants to emphasise that the strife has now been amiably settled.

“They are kids, and it was a girl thing which might as well have been about someone taking another’s boyfriend. What Jens Rohde said was something he made up, and it is really disturbing that he would ever go public with this story. I think it should be made clear how he has lied,” says the cartoonist, who wishes to remain anonymous to protect his family.

So, this is clearly another source - notice no mention of “Moslem”, no mention of what they said and an added estimate of their age. And the cartoonist is clearly downplaying their age, because schoolchildren start school at age 6 (the latest allowed is at age 7) in Denmark, so they might have been anywhere from 11-13 years old. He also downplays the role of the (Moslem) girls, saying it was a “girl thing” - doesn’t sound like it to me, when I consider the information from Politiken that they said they were there to get “the daughter of the cartoonist who had insulted their prophet”.  I think we can say that the cartoonist probably thinks he is telling the truth in general, though. Just making it a bit prettier. And he probably is also righteously furious at Jens Rohde for passing on infomation which he thought was explicitly confidential.

BUT. He was the one who relayed the information to Claus Seidel. So what does Seidel have to say? Well, this:

“The meeting was confidential, and nothing was written down. So that story must be on Jens Rohde’s head. He can say what he likes - and so can I. I shan’t be the judge of who has the best recollection of the meeting. But Jens Rohde oughn’t to pass on something - in this time of much tension - which hasn’t been put on paper and where the parties don’t agree on what’s been said.,” Claus Seidel says to Ritzau.

So…. Seidel isn’t saying that Rohde must be knowingly lying - he may merely be telling the truth as he sees it. But why oughn’t Jens Rohde to pass on this information? Was it in fact mentioned explicitly that he must never say this to anyone, well no, according to Seidel:

It wasn’t mentioned explicitly, but it was implicit. The meeting centered on the Police Intelligence Service who have for six months asked us not to speak on the matter. He should have the experience to know this. That’s why I am very disappointed that he goes directly from the meeting and shouts from the rooftops what he was given in confidentiality.

So, what does Jens Rohde have to say to this? Does he think he is lying? As Claus Seidel, Jens Rohde is clearly very much doubtful of that (taken from the interview transcribed at the bottom of this post):

 I can only take note that the information that I was given, I must have misunderstood, because what I said seems to not be the case. But apart from that I don’t wish to enter into further dialogue, or shoutingmatch, with Claus Seidel about the exact wording at that meeting. But I would like to stress that I have at no point doubted that some of the horrendous things that Claus Seidel tells me the cartoonists have experienced ought in some way to be put on the public agenda in order to further the public understanding of the cartoonists int this debate because they are constantly villified by many parties.

So, where does this leave us? Allow me to summarise.

There was a meeting Thursday. What was said at that meeting is…. Not clear. But the evasive response from Claus Seidel and the strong response from Rohde who doesn’t “wish to enter into further dialogue, or shoutingmatch, with Claus Seidel about the exact wording at that meeting”. So, it seems clear to me that what was said was closer to the 12 Moslem males than to the 6-8 girls. Also, it seems a bit fishy that the first to respond to this is Bjerregaard from the Journalist’s Guild. Why not Claus Seidel? I think that at that moment Bjerregaard was representing the cartoonists - he clearly thinks that the meeting was explicitly confidential. But that turned out to not have been so.

My assesment of what happened therefore is this: Claus Seidel was at the meeting where he exaggerated the story about the cartoonist’s daughter. He also didn’t say to Jens Rohde that it was explicitly confidential - that nothing could be even paraphrased from that meeting.

Therefore, I think Jens Rohde is probably not to blame. I think he acted in good faith.

To back my own crazy-ass opinion up, I quote here some other crazy-ass opinions. Here from the last post’s comment section by “dane in spain”:

As mentioned earlier, nothing was written down, Maybe Jens Rohde got it wrong, and maybe the chairman exagurated during the meeting and regretted aferwards.
Just as the Cartoons have been an internal tool in the Islamic countries, it is now one in Denmark.

From the same place by “Dhimmi”:

Jens Rohde got this information from someone who had an agenda of some kind. But that agenda included - maybe - not that Rohde should go straight to the press. He was perhaps just meant to be manipulated to get upset. If somebody lied, it was not Jens Rohde, but he is now unable to talk back out of loyalty to the cartoonists. There is no way, Jens Rohde could have made the story up. Why would it ever be told in this forum if it was a matter of a private nature and irrelevant to the subject ? There’s no way it would, impossible. Somebody is keeping us in the dark. What are we not mature enough to know ? Speak up !

And again, same source by Martin of http://bibelen.blogspot.com:

Anyway, something is definitely fishy and the cartoonist is trying to hush up things. Why were the police contacted if this was “old strife”? Why does the artist claim the incident wasn’t related to the cartoons, when the girls where looking for “the daughter of the artist who derided our prophet”? How does he know the age of the children?

BTW, In Denmark you start at school when you’re 6, so girls in the 6th grade are more than 10-11 years (how does the artist know what grade the girls are in?)

Also read his analysis at the bottom of this post on his blog.

Mr. Anderson(In Danish) thinks otherwise. I wonder if he would like to comment now that he has read this post?

I could have sworn that Kimpolina(In Danish) commented on this, but now I can’t find where she said so. Comments?

Filtrat(In Danish) agrees with Mr. Anderson. In fact he is even harsher. Comments?

Uriasposten (In Danish) thinks he misunderstood. Comments?

Ulla Nørtoft Thomsen (In Danish) has yet to comment on the latest events. Comments?

Dansk-Svensk (In Danish) agrees with Mr. Anderson.

Modspil thinks Jens Rohde needs a new pair of Pig’s Ears…

So everybody, what do you think - because I would really like to know. I essentially agree with Dhimmi that, basically “Somebody is keeping us in the dark. What are we not mature enough to know ? Speak up !” And I also find this whole explanation that this was a “girl thing” less than satisfactory.

BTW I find it a bit annoying that no Danish blogs seem to have trackbacks enabled. Now I have to just link and hope they watch their logs…

Here comes the transcript of the interview Jens Rohde had today in the Nyhederne news programme. I didn’t translate the rest because it’s all about the anchor questioning Jens Rohde further about whether he has been an idiot - to paraphrase a bit - and about Jens Rohde saying how sorry he is.

*******

Transcript of TV-Avisen 19:00 approx. 6 minutes into the program.

Anchor: Good evening to you, Jens Rohde. The cartoonist from Jyllands-Posten whose daughter you, on the TV-Avisen news programme, told was sought out by 12 Moslem males, says you were lying. Were you?

Jens Rohde: I would like to say that I am the first to regret if I have misinterpreted the information I was given at the meeting in question - which the cartoonists themselves, or the cartoonists representative, asked me to have - and I also regret if I have misunderstood the agenda. But I didn’t doubt for a second that there was a strong appeal at that meeting for just one politician to not just defend their cartoons nut also to make clear to the public what threats they receive and how totally unacceptable their life has become - and that is because they aren’t themselves at liberty to speak for themselves. And I definitely felt that that was the intent of this meeting, which I attended at the request of Claus Seidel. I didn’t at any time wish to use this for base politics. One should keep in mind that I put myself at risk politically by defending the cartoonists.

Anchor: Just to remind everybody, Claus Seidel is the representative (chairman) of the cartoonists. Jens Rohde, you say you have misunderstod… How can one misinterprete from there being twelve males to there actually being a number of girls. What did you misunderstand?

Jens Rohde: I can only take note that the information that I was given, I must have misunderstood, because what I said seems to not be the case. But apart from that I don’t wish to enter into further dialogue, or shoutingmatch, with Claus Seidel about the exact wording at that meeting. But I would like to stress that I have at no point doubted that some of the horrendous things that Claus Seidel tells me the cartoonists have experienced ought in some way to be put on the public agenda in order to further the public understanding of the cartoonists int this debate because they are constantly villified by many parties.